Hiring mods?

Coming from this ATT thread, I notice that there are only a handful of active mods on this wiki. It's fine and all, but there would be concern of well-being for the mods, especially at this time.

Now the one way to become a full mod is to go on a "specific ritual sacrifice when the stars align" (read: dedicating your time and resources to the site), though I had read that the site had "engineers", junior moderators who have limited modding powers on a specific branch of a wiki. Kinda like the "Privileged" users of that certain Image Booru named after monosodium glutamate.

Not sure if there are room for "engineers" nowadays on this site.

Edited by alnair20aug93 on May 18th 2020 at 1:55:30 AM

I like the idea of privileged users as a step in between regular tropers and moderators, but I have an idea to arrange overseeing those privileged users. Assuming the site had the resources to implement this, I would be all for the idea of each moderator having their own posse of deputies. Deputies could be publicly marked as "Deputy of (insert mod name here)" so that people can report a misbehaving deputy to a moderator. Each deputy could have a fraction of moderator power/responsibility, which fraction depending on manpower needs, the deputy's interest, and what the moderator trusts the deputy to not abuse, e.g. Deputy Alice could hook crowners but not place holds on TLP drafts or move pages to new namespaces, Deputy Bob could move pages to their correct namespaces but not do anything to crowners or TLP drafts, Deputy Charlie could place holds on TLP drafts but not do anything to crowners or namespaces, and Moderator Daniel doesn't want any of them suspending other users.

I don't know what a good process of interviewing and promotion would be, though. Obviously we already have someone (admins, right?) who picked people to be moderators and wrote the code to enable the role. How would that process be adapted to picking deputies in a way that's a workable balance between preventing abuse and not being overly obstructive?

I will point out, as to the herald thing, I did have to pester an admin to get it up and going. I was lucky enough that one was actually available and responded when I brought it up. This is, in my experience, extremely rare.

As for burnout, yeah, I'm actually on the tail-end of taking a week's break for that reason.

I will also add that before I became a mod, I was given some access to quasi-mod tools (I think the page mover?), but I don't know if that structure is still available.

Edited by nombretomado on May 17th 2020 at 12:34:40 PM

Huh, wow. Didn't realize the Herald thing required admin intervention; that's honestly shocking, since it happened so quickly.

But yeah, my main concern is that if we do end up hiring new mods, whoever gets promoted will suddenly be swept up in the chaos and become much less active than they were before as a result.

It's also unfortunate that the mods aren't actually paid, because you'd think there'd need to be some benefit to the job to compensate for all the stress and time it takes. Especially since without the admins being very active, the mods are our main life-line to the rest of the staff.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 17th 2020 at 6:07:03 AM

I assume you mean mods, where you put admins...

Yeah; edited. Some of the times I did mean to say "admins" though.

I think that given there are so few, mods are bogged down with the general, internet-wide function of 'moderation' (eg. mediating disputes between the userbase, bouncing problematic members, acting as liaisons to the admins) *and* all the nitty-gritty wiki maintenance functions afforded to them (eg. unlaunching TLP drafts, hooking crowners, editing locked pages). I find the proposed deputy structure more formal and complicated than necessary, but barring new promotions to mod or engineer I do wonder if it would be possible to give some more people (who would of course be vetted accordingly) access to some mod-only tools like the page mover as described without actually making them mods. But that'd require haranguing the admins about it...

Edited by Synchronicity on May 18th 2020 at 11:27:33 AM

Back before shimaspawn and I became full moderators, Eddie had created an "engineer" status which we were slotted into. We had some of the mod tools available (create/hook crowners, clocking and locking forum threads, and one or two other things IIRC) but we couldn't access the cutlist and I think there were one or two other things we couldn't do. I'd like to see this status brought back.

Well, if "engineer" is already coded (I bet the code might need updating) and "deputy" is too formal and complicated, I'll support bringing back engineers. Just so long as somehow somebody is helping the moderators with grunt work (all the nitty-gritty wiki maintenance functions afforded to them) so they have more time to moderate.

I, for one, know that I would collapse quickly under the stress of moderating if I were promoted to moderator, there are too many duties and responsibilities when I'm only interested in certain specific grunt work.

Same. I moderated a wiki much smaller and much less organized than this, and even that became super stressful for me. Not sure I could personally do something like this.

I'd happily help hook crowners if it means mods have more time for more pressing matters.

TRS would benefit a lot with 1-2 engineers.

If the admins bring back engineers...

Did engineers close crowners? I would be willing to be an engineer if it means I can close crowners as requested (or if I find a really old and dusty one that everybody forgot to close after it was acted upon). I always feel kind of bad asking a moderator to close a crowner when there are so many other things they could be doing. I would be willing to help reduce that specific part of their workload.

I would also be willing to help fix pages listed on Sandbox.Pages In Accidentally Miscapitalized Namespaces with that handy-dandy tool that preserves history and bypasses cutting and recreating. That is a dauntingly long list and I can't blame any moderator who gets discouraged by the sheer length. I'd rather fix that list as an engineer than as a moderator, fewer duties means more focus per duty. My stab-in-the-dark guess is that as an engineer, I could plow through the list in maybe two months (starry-eyed best-case scenario with everyone capable of helping doing so) maybe five months (starry-eyed best-case scenario solo or nearly solo) or maybe two years (realistically) or somewhere in between (if I'm lucky and/or there are others helping), as opposed to being a moderator and getting a quarter of the way through while juggling all the moderator duties before having a burned-out-moderator Freak Out. However, I suspect that because the site didn't have the page moving tool while the engineer code was being written, engineers wouldn't be able to use that tool unless the admins update the engineer code accordingly.

Edited by Miss_Desperado on May 19th 2020 at 8:54:16 AM

Yeah, I'd totally be down to do wiki maintenance grunt work like crowners or editing locked pages for cleanup to take some of that workload off the mods.

But this is all hypothetical, we don't know if these structures are still in place.

Edited by Synchronicity on May 19th 2020 at 10:54:50 AM

I wouldn't be surprised if Eddie merely buried the coding for "engineers," but if he did — or if he just left it there — the coders for the 1.8 update likely thought it was redundant, and tbh at the time it sort of was, considering how long it had been since there were any roles subordinate to mods but over regular tropers. If they did get rid of it, we may be an uphill climb since it would mean more work when there's other priorities (unless the mods want to go to bat for the "engineer" role).

Good question, we don't know if that code has been discarded.

Now that you mention those possibilities... I don't know which of them is more likely, but it would be a bummer if whatever happened made it harder to bring back engineers.

Engineers or no engineers, it would still reduce the workload to get some trustworthy tropers promoted to moderators. Are moderator candidates interviewed before becoming moderators? I assume there are standards to be met and some way of measuring tropers by those standards, otherwise without standards we'd have a glut of moderators misbehaving and abusing their power, which is an entirely different problem than the one we have now: a handful of moderators spreading their elbow grease so thin to the point where us tropers are concerned for their health and sanity. Who do volunteers contact to be evaluated? Is there a specific admin who makes those decisions?

Edited by Miss_Desperado on May 19th 2020 at 9:32:34 AM

The last time we promoted a troper to a moderator, it was mostly for forum purposes and that was evaluated based mostly on their posting behaviors in OTC (since that's where we needed the extra set of hands).

As for how me and Berrenta (the two newest) got picked, gotta defer to someone else (obviously)...

Me too. But I'll note that that page-fixing method also requires access to the cutlist.

If it's just specifically about doing grunt work, I could lend a hand too.

Edit: And people from the CM/MB threads (ACW or 43) would be good candidates if it meant they could edit locked pages and do the CM/MB updates personally.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 19th 2020 at 2:58:05 PM

43 would have to change usernames so that he can be pinged in that case; but he's a chill dude, good at defusing situations, and I can see a case for him.

~ACW himself is pretty levelheaded, and fairly good at defusing situations, plus he is good at catching mistakes.

I do think that ~Tyk 5919 is another possible option, since he is also good at defusing possible situations, and keeps his cool on a regular basis.

I would recommend a troper who consistently keeps their cool, can defuse situations, and has responsible editing habits.

Actually, ~War Jay 77 seems to fit that bill. Edit: It's too bad she doesn't want to do it.

Edited by SkyCat32 on May 19th 2020 at 6:31:42 AM

If we're talking grunt-work doing engineers, I'm fine. But I could never cut it as a mod, I'd get too stressed too quickly.

I wouldn't mind doing the grunt work at least; hell, it'd save me the trouble of having to request the CM changes. Too bad there's not a way to, say, give access JUST to, for example, the CM or MB pages.

As much as I would love to slap people in the face with the banhammer, I know there's a whole lot more to being a mod on a website besides that. If I were just a mod for the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard forum, sure. Maybe even doing grunt-work stuff would be fine. But being a member who has to manage and maintain the entire site would be too much for me. I've already had to distance myself from the CM forum both because I couldn't keep up with it and I was tired of being obligated to defuse situations that seemed to get out of control—especially petty ones.

IIRC, we had our eye on recruiting people who dedicated time to wiki work and were level-headed as far back as 2011, and you were definitely on the list back then. We kind of lost some manpower between 2011 - 2012, and real life has taken its toll on some of us since (I can scarcely remember how much work I got done in the past, but it was a lot).

Our moderators are chosen based on level-headedness, ability to judge and diffuse situations, willingness to work and a good track record. We have allocated specific moderators to areas we feel need specialised help (OTC, roleplay, IP, TRS) and it had worked. It is very rare that someone we do not all agree on would be nominated for modding among us, as we all have a similar person specification and skillset in mind. Consequently, when someone is mod-material, they are nominated and we deliberate on whether the person is appropriate.

(Back in the day, you would also get a PM from Eddie, which scared me because I thought I'd done something wrong! XD)

This is a question I've had for a bit, and actually sent to someone (but left answering optional).

I'd definitely like to see trusted users get certain tools above what normal users have, particularly editing locked pages. I've also thought about whether I could be trusted with moderator privileges/powers as well as if people would like me to be one, but it's not something I'm fully confident in yet for a few reasons. (Feel free to ask why.)

Also, hello, ~lu127!